>How’s it going, everyone? Welcome to Heliopolis Radio. Today, I’ve been fortunate to be joined by John Bliss, author of “The False Paradigm of Today and the Timeless Truth of Tomorrow.” He has a very interesting take on not just our human psyche, but some of our societal structures and how they’re based on certain false perceptions of self. It’s all subjective, right? Everyone has an opinion on what is and what’s not. But I’m interested to hear how John will relay this perspective to us as an audience and also share a bit about himself. So, without further ado, I hand it over to you, John, tell us about yourself. 

>> Oh my gosh, I don’t know how to go with that. That’s so darn open-ended. Everybody could talk about themselves for like 24 hours. 

> In a concise five-minute way. 

>> I am not a writer really, but I wrote a book. It’s 450 pages. I’ve been writing for an hour a day, more or less, for 13 years. 

>> What I am is an engineer. I’ve focused on energy efficiency and in making buildings energy efficient. I’m one of those all-around type guys. I was never really great at anything, but I was good at everything. I think that’s all I can tell you. 

> I love it. Thank you. And your self-description was obviously concise and it was perfect. And so, I’ve been reading about you. You question yourself, you seem to be a person who has had a lot of time to introspect. And as you mentioned, you’ve done a whole bunch of different things. Usually, people who do a bunch of different things, they tend to go question themselves, “Why are they doing what they’re doing? Does it make sense why they’re doing it?” Usually, when they get to that point, they shift and they do something else. So, the first thing is, why do you believe, or do you believe, people should constantly question their actions and why they do what they do? 

>> Absolutely. Well, the problem as I see it, it’s kind of cruel, the whole human situation. We were born without a rule book. There was nothing to tell us what is real, what is not. What should we be doing in life? How do you know if you are winning this game of life? What are we supposed to be doing?  

>> And you know, I noticed it. I went to college in California and I remember looking around at all the other students and they all were on this track. It’s like, “Okay, what am I going to do? I’m going to do really good in school. I’m going to get a really good job. I’m going to get married. I’m going to buy a house. I’m going to pay a mortgage. I’m going to have children. Then I’m going to retire. And then I’m going to die.” That was the plan, at least in the United States in the 1970s, ’80s, and ’90s, and everybody was doing it. And when I looked around, I didn’t think those people were happy. I didn’t think they were fulfilled. And so I thought that was a really bad plan. 

>> And I’m not really sure. I never was in their head. I don’t know if they really questioned themselves. I always questioned that plan. And I always thought, “This is stupid. I don’t want to do that.” I looked at the people around me, you know, that are older and they’re not happy. They’re not fulfilled. “I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to be that.” So, I looked and I looked and of course I didn’t find anything. There’s no rule book. So what was I supposed to do? Go look and find someone who looks successful? They have the same problems as everybody else. So, yes. Should we be questioning ourselves? Absolutely. Is there an easy answer? No, I don’t have it. I think I know the direction that would give people the most joy and purpose in life. I do believe that.  

> It’s interesting because philosophy and truth are often kind of subjective, right? We draw understanding from our own perspective of life. And yes, it’s an interesting dynamic that society has is, as a collective: we share thoughts and ideas with each other. And sometimes those ideas catch on, and sometimes they catch on so strongly, as you mentioned. You talk about identification, group identification. Those things become our identity. And it’s interesting, you also say that our plans for our lives were never our own. Those were things we picked up from other people’s thinking patterns. But because they were so conveniently around us, we took them as our own.  

> So, do you believe, that after developing your own philosophy and your own introspection, that it can become a burden, because when you share it, people might take it as a truth, and that was never your intention. Because you know, there are people who do these quotes from Marcus Aurelius. I’m sure if you met them, they weren’t actually intending for these quotes to help you, I mean, they were doing it for themselves, right? They were doing it for their own understanding of life, not yours. I’ve always found that interesting.  

> So, I was going to ask, do you feel that the root cause of our suffering is actually this gift of developing our own perspective and opinion on life? Is that maybe kind of one of the… 

>> Oh, jeez. I guess I don’t know. 

> You’re a smart guy. I had to ask some, some, some type of questions and substance. 

>> Well, I didn’t realize you’re so thoughtful. Okay, the root cause of suffering. I don’t know. But I’m going to guess. I’m just one man.  

>> But before I even give you my guess, I will give you a more general response of my place in the universe. The way I see it is we are all manifestations of God. God is more than just us. But we are God. . . 

>> And we are all different. We all have different talents. We have different wiring in our heads, and we’re all playing this life game differently. We all have different end goals in our lives. Like, getting rich isn’t going to make everybody happy. It’ll make some people happy, but not a lot of them. There’s all these different things that we need to do. So we’re all playing a different game at the same time but on the same gameboard. But one of the problems is that most of us don’t know what game we should be playing. That’s the problem. They’re playing the wrong game. They’re playing a game that someone else told them to play. Their father told them, or their baseball coach, or their Boy Scout master, or their pastor. And they’re playing the wrong game.  

>> And so, I guess you could say, there are a couple roots of suffering. One is that you’re playing the wrong game. That you don’t know what you’re supposed to be doing. If you knew what you were supposed to do and you were actually trying to do it, even if you failed, but you are trying and every day you try, I think there’s a certain drive there and a certain joy in knowing that I’m doing my thing. I’m doing what I’m supposed to do. So, I guess that’s number one.  

>> The other one, and this one’s a little more abstract. I think that, that at it’s root, this is a South African thing, and you know it so much more than I do, it’s this whole Ubuntu concept, right? Ubuntu. 

> Yes. 

>> I, I think that the more selfish we are, and the more self-absorbed, and it’s all about me and me getting my stuff. . .The more we are that way, I think the more unhappy we are. And the more that we realize that, really, we’re part of a group and that we thrive when the group thrives, and if you could have that whole attitude of trying to help everyone around you, to lift their lives up to be better. If you could do that and have that attitude, you will be so much happier. And you know that when you serve or help other people, that always brings you joy. It does. 

>> So, that would be my two answers. 

> Interesting. Maybe just touching on that is. I think we struggle with the whole element of humility. At least looking at my own life, it comes from a place of insecurity, right? We’re brought up in this culture that’s very competitive. It’s a survival-oriented mentality, that in order for you to really be thriving, you need to have the most. You need to, it’s just the thing, right? And, and our society really pushes it, and what you speak of, selflessness, it’s not very popular because the very act of selflessness is, there’s an authenticity required. You can’t be selfless without paying the price for it, right? But as you mentioned, there’s a metaphysical reward of peace in your heart, knowing that you did right by someone else, or you did your best to make sure someone benefited from encountering you, rather than the typical worldly nature of how things are, “What can I get and how can I one-up this person?”  

> And I do agree that there is a certain peace that comes from doing things that sometimes don’t have a material benefit, but as you mentioned, there’s a certain psychological and spiritual. . .I guess peace or understanding that you’re doing something that is… 

>> A sense of joy, a little bit of joy in knowing you’re helping someone. You know, if you have a friend that’s really down and you can help them out of their problem, that makes you feel great, I think. And something that the Buddhists taught me was that. . . 

>> So, I, I ran a business. I didn’t mention that, but II used to own a business for about 20-some years. And with business, it’s up and down and up and down. Sometimes you’re making a ton of money and you’re on top of the world, and about six months later, you’re going to lose everything you own. You’re going to lose the business. You’re going to have to fire everybody. You’re going to lose your home. You’re going to have no savings left. It’s all going to hell. And then it’s up again. And that’s the cycle in business. It’s great and then it’s awful. It’s great, then it’s awful. After a while, you know when it’s great, it’s going to be awful again. You just wait. Just wait a year, maybe six months, but it’s coming. That’s the background.  

>> So the Buddhists taught me that if, if you are having hard times, like let’s say in business or in finance, let’s say you’re broke. . .They said the best thing to do is give money away. Now, it doesn’t make any sense. It’s like, “Wait a sec. Wait a sec. I don’t have any money. I’m not sure I’m going to be able to pay my employees. And you’re saying I need to start donating to charities?” Yes. Yes. 

> Wow. Why? 

>> And so, the way they see it, and I think they, they might have something here. There’s a lot of things that just aren’t rational. Rationality is great, but it’s just a tool, and everybody thinks it’s the only tool that matters, and it is not. It is so limited, but we’ll get to that maybe later. 

>> But this is not a rational act. You are broke and now you’re giving things away. 

>> Well, the Buddhists see it as, “Look, if you start giving things away, the universe will see you as a conduit. You are a conduit and you are helping. You are doing all these great things. The universe will give you more money so that you can do more great things with it.” 

>> The more you give away, the more you’ll have. The more you give away, the more you’ll have. And I did that, one of those few times when I was really down, you know, my business was really in bad shape. That’s when I would just start giving money away. 

> Wow. 

>> Now, do I know it works? I don’t know. I’m just telling you what I was taught. I don’t know if it’s true, but I believe it.  

> Wow. It is interesting that you mentioned that, because especially in the times we’re living in, they are so tough in many facets. 

> It’s interesting how these spiritual concepts are becoming more profound and they have deeper meaning when you’re pushed to the fence. I think if you were to mention that to someone who’s been successful without having to give, they wouldn’t believe you because they’re like, “I’m still doing well. I’m still doing good.” But I guess there is a certain time where life does happen, and the cycle of karma, Buddhist karma, is a very strong concept. 

> And, you have high tides and you have to have your low tides, and I feel like society is in a proper low tide now where. . . 

> These concepts that you’re sharing now are probably more profound because I know for a fact there are a lot of business owners that are suffering. There are a lot of people that are looking to find an alternative way to escape suffering. But what you’re mentioning here. . . 

> It actually kind of hit home. It made me really realize, that maybe, you’re right. Maybe this is the opportune time to really open up your heart and actually live from a place of integrity. And who knows, maybe they’ll be rewarded. So, it’s interesting that you share that, especially considering the times we’re living in. We’re all going through whatever battles we are, but, the economic battle definitely. From what I’ve noticed just in my own life and the people I’ve engaged with, the economic battle, the financial one, because we’re so attached to money. We need it. 

> What you’re mentioning, it’s quite liberating. There’s a certain wisdom to what you just said. So, I’m not too sure if it resonated with everyone, but I do kind of agree with you that maybe if it’s not happening for you, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t not believe in the abundance of the universe. Perhaps that is a wisdom of truth. 

>> Yes, I believe it. But I was successful in business. I had the ups and downs and I was on top of the world making all this money, and then I was also on the bottom and I was losing everything, everything. And then it came back up and down and up, and I managed to sell at the top and I was very happy. Not the very top. I’m sure it’s going to go down again and it’s going to go up probably even higher than where I sold it. I don’t care. I didn’t sell when I was desperate. That’s what matters. 

> Thank you for bringing that up. And obviously, coming to your book, you mentioned 13 years writing it. I know the process of writing a book, especially the book of your nature, it’s a lot of evaluating your thought patterns and re-evaluating. So, are there some times when you’re writing the book that you actually ended up removing things because maybe you didn’t believe that anymore or maybe thought, “Okay, this doesn’t make sense”? 

>> Well, some things didn’t work. And there’s actually one logical contradiction in this book still. And I, I’m curious if anyone’s ever going to catch it. I know where it is, but I don’t know if anyone else will find it. But, I guess there’s, there’s certain parts where I had to delete a lot of stuff. I probably deleted about a fourth of what I wrote. It’s 450 pages. So that’s a lot. And some of it, I did change, most of it, I did not. And I want to explain. I guess you asked, “Why did you write it?” So, I wrote pretty much for about an hour a day, an hour to an hour and a half, and I just got exhausted after that. I couldn’t write anymore. So, I would just go back to running the business. I was doing that too. 

>> So, what started it all was when I was really young, I was eating psilocybin mushrooms. They’re magic mushrooms. I don’t know if you’ve heard of those.  

> I’ve had them before. Very interesting experience for sure. 

>> I think it might have been my first try at them, and I was with my brother and some of his friends. We were on the beach in Central California on the coast, and we all ate it and I didn’t feel anything. It didn’t work for me. And they all started doing whatever they do on it, and they took off. They left me alone, I don’t know why. But they did work on me. It just was a little slow coming on. And I remember about 4:00 in the morning waking up, I don’t think I was asleep. It’s just, I remember from 4:00 in the morning afterwards, and I don’t know what happened for the previous six hours, but at 4:00 in the morning, I was laying down on the beach, face down or nearly face down, on my stomach, and this song kept repeating in my head. It’s a song, a Brazilian song by Milton Nascimento and Chico Buarque. It’s called “O Que Será.” It’s the most beautiful song, and it has these really, really sad trumpets that just repeat over and over again. And the sound of trumpets to me represented how life is so sad. I mean, the, the folly, the inevitable folly of man in that, you know, you have these great dreams as a youth. You’re going to do all this great stuff. You believe all this great stuff, and slowly, it all just kind of goes to hell and, and then you end up dying and it’s over and that’s it. It’s like it didn’t happen. That’s the sadness. But the most important thing was what was going on in my head and I saw myself as a youth, as I was, that I was going to get married. I was going to find some woman that I thought was beautiful and I would fall in love. We will marry and have children. But when you’re young, you’re very idealistic, everything’s going to be great, then you have children, and then you get old and die. But my child will then be a youth, find someone that he loves and repeat the same cycle. And he will have these great ideals, thinking he’s going to do great things, he falls in love, has children, and then he dies. And then his child is going to do the very same thing. And my father did the same thing, and my grandfather did the same thing. And I realized that I was part of this incredible cycle of humanity, of history, that I was just one more cycle of this thing that’s been going on for generations, for centuries, for thousands of years, that this was just one more iteration. And that really is at root the theme of the book, or that is what really caused me to write this book. I didn’t start writing the next day. I started writing about 10 or 15 years later. But that is really the heart of it. 

> And I guess, in terms of what you’d want readers to learn, because authors write with intention for sure. Some write without intention, but even without, there’s still an indirect intention that manifests like that may not be evident with your type of book. 

> How do you want the reader to respond to some of the thoughts and questions and experiences in your own life. . .Usually when we want to contribute to something, we want to spark some type of thought or question within someone that they can carry with them themselves.  

>> It’s all about history. Our lives fall in the context of our history. I don’t think people understand history in the least. I don’t know what it was like in South Africa, but in the United States, they taught us history poorly, and they taught us names and dates and battles, and everybody was bored and everybody hated it. 

>> But history is not that. History is the development of humanity. I mean, if you go back throughout the centuries, where were we a thousand years ago, or 2,000, or 10,000 years ago? What did we believe? What were our societies like? I’m talking about Western society. I’m biased. I’m from the West, but in Western society, you can see a progression. And one of the progressions is religious, right? We used to believe that there was like a rain god, a river god, or whatever. We were scared of all these different gods that might kill us. And eventually then we became monotheistic. 

>> We then had one god. And then that changed. We had the French Revolution, and the revolutionaries were saying, “Okay, we don’t have a god. We have ideals.” The French would think that that was a, a great step forward. I’m not sure it is. But anyway. . .I was hoping that what people would get out of the book is to really feel that we are a part of history. That, that history is the real story. The real story is not you and it’s not me. You’re going to die and I’m going to die. Give it a generation or two and no one’s going to remember us. It doesn’t matter that we lived. Ah, maybe some book I wrote, maybe. I doubt it, but maybe someone will read it in a generation or two and it might affect them. But probably not. And you know, your podcast, maybe someone will hear them and it might affect people. They might tell their children. So maybe yes, maybe they can have an effect. But nobody’s going to remember you and me. Yes, can affect humanity. But the whole point is to realize that our part in a story is so small. And the real story is about humanity itself. That’s the real creature of importance. And we all so focused on our own lives, but it’s not about us. 

>> It’s about the big story. And that is what I wanted people to really understand. And you can’t just explain it. I mean, I can’t. Here I’m talking about it, but I don’t think that me just talking about it for five minutes is going to do it to people. It’s not going to get it in their heads. And that’s why I wrote the book because I, I bring you to that point from all these different perspectives, from looking at science and critiquing science, or looking at history and going at it from that way, or looking at idealism or morality or religion. And from all these different points, we come to the same conclusion. And that’s, that’s what the book does. 

> That’s interesting because, in transcendental meditation, they talk about reducing yourself to nothing, which is a very. . .but what is liberation? What is freedom? Because for us, at least in our minds, freedom is, is predominantly financial. Maybe it’s political. But as you’re speaking about it, it really is not even that at all. It’s not even the closest thing. What it is, is an existential cycle that we’re actually stuck in.  

> And a lot of people do get depressed on this point because it can either work two ways. It can motivate someone to make the most of life and its grand happenings, or it can leave people very indifferent and uncaring towards what’s happening around them, because, “Oh, I’m alive, I’m going to die, nothing matters anyway, so why should I care?” You know, it really depends on your psyche. So, I guess I was going to ask you, because building onto it is the state of humanity right now. . .What we’re going through as a collective, what we’re going through as a society is, is quite difficult. And I, and I don’t know if you’d agree, there’s a greater degree of madness and insanity to our world that maybe, I’m not too sure what it was like before. I’m sure the societies of the past had problems. The worlds of the past had crises and everything, but ours is seemingly different because one, we’re so interconnected in many ways, technologically. And it’s just the extremity of it. What you see is, it’s almost unheard of. It almost feels like it’s a, it’s a bit too much.  

> So, what are your thoughts on where we are as society and how do you suggest people cope in terms of protecting their psyche and also, as you mentioned, paying attention to the grander story, because it’s tough to see what’s bigger than you when what’s going around you is, is almost taking all your attention away. It’s forcibly taking attention away from you, from this. 

>> Yeah. I didn’t know you’d be so thoughtful. That’s really cool. I, I really enjoy talking to you. I didn’t expect this. 

>> So, first off, the way I see it is that history is long. So, one of the problems with like reformers, people that want to change the world, they expect it to happen in their lifetime and they try to enforce it on everybody, like, you know, you could say like Lenin or Stalin or Mao or. . .maybe you could even say the South African leaders, I don’t know. But they didn’t force stuff on people. At least not the, not Tutu and Mandela. They didn’t really force things on anyone. They didn’t. I guess you can say Trump is doing that and I think Biden was doing it. And so they’re in a hurry because they want to see it done in their lifetimes, but change doesn’t happen like that. For example, look at the stock market, right? It’s up and down and up and down, up and down, but there’s a general trend. 

>> You could look at the trend over five years, you know, but maybe you should look at the trend from 1900 to present. That’s probably a better trend to look at. Then all these ups and downs, they become nothing. They are nothing. They’re blips, right? And so right now what we’re seeing is blips. You could say is the madness now is crazy. You said that it’s worse than ever. Well, I don’t think so. I think that during World War I, it was worse than ever. 

> I think so.  

>> I think that when Genghis Khan was coming through and, and wiping out Central Asia. I think that was worse than ever. I think there have been a lot of worse than evers. But those are just blips. There’s just a general trajectory that is happening, and it is good. It’s just that we don’t live long enough to see it or to understand it. And so in your lifetime, you may see that everything’s going down. It’s getting worse and worse. But if you live 10 lifetimes, you would see that it’s actually getting better. This down time is just something we had to work out. 

>> So, for example, one of the reasons why things are crazy, well, they aren’t as crazy as you think. They appear crazy because we have these stupid cell phones. That’s the problem. And it’s the news on demand and all this political opinion, some of which is bots that are making up this controversy. I used to look at X, they used to called it Twitter, and I stopped. I’ve been off for now three weeks and my life is so much better. And now my big addiction, you know, you could be addicted to sex, to gambling, to drugs, to booze. Mine is news, and, and it’s, it destroys my, my capacity to do anything or to be anything of any substance. It just, it just takes away all of your attention and, and you can’t do anything. It takes too much of your RAM. You know, I’m talking about the random access memory in the computer of your mind. It just, it just, it robs you of life and of potential. 

>> And so, I pay myself now every day that I don’t look at the news. I give myself $10. I want to play in the World Series of Poker, and that’s going to cost me $10,000 to enter the tournament. So, I got to do this no news thing for quite a while.  

>> But that aside, the, the news, the cell phones, the constant reminders, that chatter, that’s got to go. And, and the world isn’t as bad as you think, right? If I believed all the stuff about South Africa that I see online, I would think that all the black people want to kill all the white people. All of them want to kill all the white people. That’s what I would believe. But, I don’t think that’s true. I know that’s not true. People are people and most people are good. That’s just how it is. But you don’t see that online. 

>> Yeah. I don’t think things are as crazy as people think. I remember a few years ago, this was right they blew up Nord Stream. Whoever “they” is, I don’t know, the US? I don’t know who it was. 

>> But they blew up Nord Stream and they said that, “Oh yeah, Germany having real energy problems and they’re heating all their buildings to just 55 degrees Fahrenheit because energy is so expensive. Everybody’s going to be cold all winter.” So, I went and visited… 

> A dark winter. Yeah. There was a whole theory that people were going to freeze to… 

>> It didn’t happen. Every hotel I was in, it was 70 degrees, not 55 degrees. I was thinking, “Oh, come on. This is so. . .” 

> I am actually, guilty as charged. I believed that, too. I was thinking, “Oh man, finally you can enjoy a power crisis like what Africa have been going through for the longest time.” 

> Unfortunately, time flies, right? when you’re having a conversation with someone. But, there’s a lot of wisdom that you shared then. And again, I really appreciate the humility and perspective you’re bringing because you mentioned that just because something’s happening in my time frame or generation or lifetime doesn’t mean it’s the most significant happening in history. It’s just another happening. And it’s tough to actualize that concept because when you’re living and experiencing something, it’s real. 

> It’s very real to you. It’s what’s immediate, not what happened before. So, it’s tough to detach from reality and have that perspective you’re talking about. I think it’s a day in, day out type job where you have to consciously remind yourself that it’s not that big of a deal or that it’s not, it’s not as significant as I think it is. As much as I want to feel like it because it’s, it’s happening, it’s just not that way. That’s not how life works.  

>> Um, that seems to be a very, very important, um, message that’s just, uh, emanating through what you’ve spoken of is to, for people to take away from themselves and their lives, which is difficult because we are selfish sometimes. We are selfish most of the time. 

>> Yeah. Me too. Me too. 

>> And so, I guess just to sum it up, because, um, I mean, this interview could go on for hours. There’s a lot that we, we barely touched here. 

>> There’s a, there’s a, there’s a lot to it. But I guess, um, the two questions I would ask, one is just in terms of the book, accessing it. Um, what platforms is it available on? Obviously, I know there’s Barnes & Noble and there’s Amazon. Um… 

>> No, it’s, it’s, I don’t know if you can see it, but maybe you can. This is it. I got to put it close to me to see it, but, um, it’s, uh, it is on Amazon and the easy way, it’s a, I, unfortunately the name is good. But I thought it was cool, but it’s too long and people aren’t going to remember it. So, if you just look up the word John Bliss, and they’re easy words to spell. You can spell them yourself. John Bliss and the word essays, you’ll find it. So, just look, do a search for John Bliss essays on Amazon. You’ll find there’s a hardback and then there’s an ebook also. 

>> Perfect. Thank you. We have Amazon here, uh, finally. 

>> We’re good. We’re good to go on that department. And then I guess the last one is always an interesting one, ’cause I ask guests and they’re like, “Oh, why are you asking this one?” Or that is completely unrelated to what we’re talking about, but it is important. I feel like this is the, is, you know, the essence of, and what are your words of wisdom and advice for the audience tuning in today? 

>> Oh, I think, okay, two things. The best thing you can do to make your life better is to stop looking at social media. That’s number one. No social media. No news, no more. That would be the best thing you can do. And it’s very difficult, at least for me.  

>> The second thing is if you have children, read to your child every night and make that be your bedtime routine. Read to them every night until they get tired. Then you put them to bed. If you pray, pray with them after, and then put them to bed. 

>> It’s a great routine to wind them down, but also to make them smart and make them love books. If they love books, they will become smart and they will teach themselves throughout their lives. 

> Wow. 

>> When I, when I read to my daughter, I always read above her reading level. Always above her reading level. And so there’d be words that she didn’t know what they meant and I didn’t either. And we would look them up. 

>> So, those are my two pieces of advice. 

> I wasn’t expecting the second one for sure. The first one, it’s 100% mandatory. It’s World Mental Health Day today, so I couldn’t agree with the first one any more than I do. But the second one was definitely out of the blue and there’s a lot of power to it.  

> So, I just want to say, John, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on this. 

>> Thank you so much. 

> Yeah, and the wisdom that you shared was not only humbling, but it was also really important in terms of just keeping it together, especially when everything’s seemingly falling apart. But maybe it’s building itself together for something new. As you mentioned, I think everything’s always shifting towards a new and. . . 

>> That’s right. That’s right. 

>> Keeping yourself informed and always having, as you mentioned, that deep desire to inquire for yourself, not to be given a book, but to want to read a book for your own understanding. That, that, that is powerful. That is powerful. So, thank you for sharing that. It really is true and it’s very necessary for our society right now. So with that being said, it’ll be good to have you on again. And who knows what the world will be like at that point in time. The good thing about the time we’re living in is there’s no shortage of commentary. There’s no shortage of, of room to talk about things. But, thank you so much. It’s an absolute pleasure. 

>> Thank you, Mufaru. Thank you very much.